What do Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz, and Mike Hukabee have in common besides being Republican politicians? Bad eschatology. Specifically premillennial dispensationalism.
The attached meme sums it up, or at least half the story.
Facebook Post captured o4-20-2026
Folks, when you hold views in isolation—in your mind anyway—you can simultaneously claim to value two ideals that are in complete opposition to each other.
Illustration: Life or Death
Let me pick on Liberals first and illustrate what I mean. Let’s take the issue of life. Liberals simultaneously value life and death as the highest ideals. They hold both as true and don’t see the inherent conflict. Let’s explore this.
Liberals oppose the death penalty for those that commit murder. They view this as unjust. They claim nobody deserves the death penalty because it is cruel and unusual punishment, inhuman, and discriminates against minorities. Some even quote the Bible stating, “Thou shalt not kill.” Thus, they assert that executing someone is violating the Commandment of God.
Simultaneously, Liberals support death via abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide. Lest Liberals dispute my claim of support for all three: abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide then let me sight a few examples that won’t make your brain hurt should you choose to verify them.
Euthanasia is legal in several states and in Canada. Canada called their euthanasia program MAID. As of my writing, Canada is surpassing the deaths of over 100,000 of its citizens via the MAID program.
The United States has killed upwards of 73 million children via legal abortion since 1973. Contrary to what you would expect, abortions are higher now than when Roe v Wade was the Law of the Land. This is due to the availability of abortion pills being shipped over state lines, mostly from California and New York.
Infanticide is legal in California and probably a few other leftist states, I’m thinking maybe Colorado. In California, if an infant dies, it is illegal for any law enforcement officer, doctor, or other government official to investigate the cause of death. If such an investigation occurs, the person investigating can be prosecuted and jailed for committing a crime; thus, a woman has an absolute right to kill her child purposely or by neglect and she cannot be punished. This has been California law for many years. Thanks Gavin Newsom.
Oh, the time limit of how old a child can be before its death is investigated in California is not defined in the law. It was felt that the mother could choose to kill her baby during a period of at least the first 30 days of life, but such a limit was left to be decided by the courts and not the Legislature.
Thus, killing a human being that is weaker than yourself is allowed in states that oppose the death penalty. One must therefore conclude that life is not valued highly in Liberal states despite protestations that the death penalty is wrong. Life and death are arbitrary and decided on something other than the intrinsic value of human life. Oh, yes, Liberals will cite passages of Scripture in isolation to support ending life and saving life. Their metric seems to be to free the guilty and punish the innocent. There is no single logical proposition to justify both death and life in their worldview.
Scofieldism and the Jews
In like manner, premillennial dispensationalists will proclaim support for Israel and simultaneously believe that Jews only exist to be slaughtered in the largest holocaust in the history of the planet, a yet future even which will make what Hitler did seem like a picnic in comparison.
Huckabee, Cruz, and Graham all hold to this view as do millions of Evangelicals in the West. I hope to illustrate the absurdity of these ideas in what follows.
Some claim that the premillennial dispensational view is orthodox Christianity, but I say that is B.S.
I have previously delt with the idea that the promise in Genesis to bless Abraham has no application to the modern nation called “Israel.” The New Testament makes it clear that the offspring of Abraham are not genetic descendants but those who by faith believe in Christ. Look it up in the New Testament books of Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Galatians 3:6–9.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:26–29.
Premillennial dispensationalists deny the plain teaching of the New Testament and instead teach that God will eventually get back to dealing with national Israel at some point in the future. A future when the Church is no longer in the picture. Until the Church is Raptured, they think the Bible teaches that in order to be a good Christian that you must support modern Israel, right or wrong, or God will punish you both personally and as a nation.
Again, the New Testament teaches that Jesus is the true Israel and that his followers are the true Israel—people of God. In Jesus, the promise made to Abraham is fulfilled, Abraham is heir to the whole world and through Christ (Abraham’s seed) all the nations of the world have been blessed. The Bible also promises at a future date that Jesus will be the Savior of the World. The Church will fulfill her mission, and the world will be converted. God divorced Israel in 70 AD and has a new people, a new bride, the Church. He is done with Old Covenant Israel.
What Do Evangelicals Believe is Israel’s Fate
Some Evangelicals even raise money to send Jews to Israel. Isn’t that nice? They are so supportive of modern Israel. Did you ever wonder why?
Evangelicals are supportive of Israel because they want the Jews there to die. No, really. They believe that 2/3 of all the Jews in Israel will die. Some even say that 2/3 of all Jews everywhere on the planet will die.
For Evangelicals, this wasn’t fulfilled in 70 A.D. as Jesus predicted but is the future that Jews have to look forward to experiencing. Isn’t that wonderful? So, for every three Jews you help send to Israel, two will die to usher in the End Times.
Yep, they really teach this as the Gospel; the good news that Jews have to expect in their future. Then after 2/3 are killed, the Jews will be so thankful for what just happened to them that all the rest will willingly believe in Jesus and then Christ will return and set up his Kingdom.
Premillennial dispensationalism demands a literal Kingdom, in literal Jerusalem, with Jesus sitting on a literal throne. The millennium will be so wonderful, Jews will reestablish sacrifices in the rebuilt temple (I’m not sure if this is the third or fourth rebuilt temple) and even circumcise babies on the eighth day. It will be just like old times. In fact, it will be just like Jesus never came and accomplished a darn thing by his death.
Oh, nobody ever asks, if the remaining Jews all believe in Jesus, why do they need to restart the Sacrificial system? Didn’t Jesus say, “It is finished?” Doesn’t the New Testament teach that Jesus was the High Priest and the final and perfect sacrifice for sin, so why a new physical temple?
Conclusion
These contradictions don’t matter to the premillennial dispensationalist crowd. Once you start holding contradictory views in isolation, you get to juggle these views in your head and as long as they remain in isolation, people can hold them all to be true.
This belief system is nuts but that is what is taught within the footnotes of the Scofield Reference Bible. Millions of people believe this nonsense. Prophecy pimps make millions of dollars printing books teaching these falsehoods. People with itching ears gobble up this teaching and just assume it must be the correct grid to interpret the Bible. Scofield’s system cannot be found within the Bible unless it is assumed before you open the Book. The core of his system is never found in the Bible.
Future Rebuilt Temple – not there
Antichrist as a political figure– not there
Seven years of tribulation– not there
Great Tribulation being Worldwide– not there
Rapture– not there
God not done with national Israel– not there
Kingdom of God put on hold– not there
Mark of the Beast being literal– not there
I could go on but you get the point. Everything that made “The Late, Great Planet Earth” and “Left Behind” sensational is not found in the Bible, at least not if the context of the Scriptures matter.
Final Word
The nonsense coming from Lindsey Graham, Mike Huckabee, and Ted Cruz about Israel is just that, nonsense. If you want to back Israel because you think they are a good ally in the Middle East then have fun with that, but don’t expect God to bless our country just because you believe we must back Israel right or wrong. Sorry, but I get nervous when someone is more willing to back a foreign country than they are the United States. I thought Donald Trump was booting masses of people out of the United States for doing that very thing. Or is the double standard one way for conservatives and another for everyone else?
With a title like that, if you are expecting a post about Jesus’ friendship with Mary and Martha, please stop reading because you’ll be disappointed. No, I’m once again pointing out a failure in the premillennial dispensational scheme.
Would You Rather …
Admittedly, half the reason that I go to the church Bible study is to get blog ideas, and this post stems from such a study that I attended last night. Towards the end of the session, a question was asked that I found interesting. I don’t recall it verbatim, but it was to the effect of, would you rather be a part of God’s chosen people the Jews coming to Christ as such or part of the New Testament Church?
The respondent thought for a moment and then replied; I guess I would prefer knowing Christ as part of His church.
Bingo. Right answer.
Even one of the stopped prophecy clock guys came up with an orthodox sounding answer. It’s a start.
The guy answering the question is always trying to push every Old Testament prophecy of judgment into the future, but even he seemed content that the book of Amos might actually be something that was fulfilled. He seemed willing to accept the idea that maybe Amos was fulfilled but could be a warning from history that we might learn from. His concluding that God gave us the book of Amos for our instruction is mildly hopeful.
It was a rare time when folks in the group were not trying to make prophecies of judgment into passages requiring double or triple fulfillments. I think the group leader actually teaching the book as history that was fulfilled was satisfying to attendees. Much of the previous books of the minor prophets were concerning the same judgments but the group kept trying to force fulfilled passages into the future to be fulfilled yet again.
Sadly, these moments of lucid theological insight were contradicted by invoking that Christ has two brides: namely, the Church and the Jews. This is not the traditional view of the Church. This crazy idea is part of the Zionist scheme of Schofield which has been adopted without any Biblical warrant by much of the evangelical church.
Does Jesus Have Two Brides
Guys let me not confuse you by quoting the Bible since it’s not your authority as to what the Bible says. Try this explanation.
The purpose of God dealing with the Jews, and Moses, and the Old Testament was to get us to Christ, the Jews’ Messiah.
A recurring theme in the Bible is that at least a remnant of Jews will be saved. Jesus said that only a remnant of Jews alive in the First Century would be saved. In the same passage however, he also promised that hordes of Gentiles would come streaming into the Kingdom.
The illustration that Jesus used was that of an olive tree. Branches of the domesticated olive would be broken off, and wild olive branches would be grafted into the root of the tree. Thus, the Kingdom of God is built from the Jews, includes Jews, and even honors the Jews but access to Christ is also granted to the Gentiles (think rest of us in the world).
Thus, the Jews are never set aside until some future date as Scofield claims. The New Testament Church is built on the foundation of Judaism, and populated with the Spiritual children of Abraham; namely, us.
Conclusion
This is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that the world would be His inheritance (see book of Hebrews). Jesus unites both Jew and Gentile into one new man. There is no separation between male and female, bond and free, Jew or Gentile. We are all the Bride of Christ. This is a forever arrangement not a temporary one. Jesus has only one Bride.
National Israel was destroyed for the sin of adultery in 70 A.D. This is one of the main points of the Book of Revelation. The harlot, Babylon the Great, where Jesus was crucified is destroyed. Burned forever. (Burning with fire is a punishment reserved almost exclusively in the Bible for the daughter of the priest. Leviticus 212:9)
Sorry, this is not a do-over of Jacob working to get both Rachel and Leah by slaving away, working seven years for each bride. The idea that Jesus gets Israel and her little sister, the Church at the end is the ages is syrupy, sentimental nonsense.
I’ve been going to a Bible study on Thursday nights that is sponsored by the church that I am currently attending. The study is completely unmoored from the normal restraints of context, historical relevance, and using the Bible to interpret the Bible. The result is often fantastical and disjointed.
Amos is the third minor prophet that we have been reading since I started attending. Last Thursday, for the first time, the leader actually had done a bit of research on the book and its historical fulfillment. Even after reading the notes related to our reading—chapter one—many in the group were unconvinced that any of it had been fulfilled between the time Amos made the pronouncements of impending judgment and the time of Christ. They kept demanding that Amos must really be about the “end times” and couldn’t possibly be history. Some also invoke the idea of double or triple fulfillment which to me renders the text no better than the ravings of Nostradamus.
Folks, if I could ban three words during the study, most participants would be mute. Those three words are “rapture”, “end”, “times”. Many people say that the Bible is all about Jesus, but this group believes that church is just a cute bus stop while we wait with oil in our lamps for the Rapture while doing nothing in the meantime, so we don’t miss His Return. In their minds, the church has nothing else to do. Somehow that whole “discipling the nations” thing is for another era—probably a future one.
This Israel is not that Israel
I hear a lot about Israel and how all those nations mad at Benjamin Netanyahu will get punished by God because to disparage the modern nation of Israel is to attack God’s People.
Benjamin Netanyahu
If you point out that the modern nation of Israel is not the one in the Bible and that the current nation calling itself “Israel” is not based on the teaching of Moses, you get crickets. It doesn’t matter because we just have to be living in the “end times.”
If you dare to point out that only the followers of Jesus are part of the true Israel, they look at you like you have a third eye or rebuke the comment in the name of Jesus. Just because that is what the New Testament teaches matters not because Scofield doesn’t agree.
All of these abuses by Israel have happened in the last week as most people are looking only at the war with Iran. I guess other guys don’t let a good crisis go to waste either.
Folks, my California editorial staff is correct that nothing will change for the better in this country as long as the Baby Boom generation is running the show. The so-called adults running this place are broken as are lots of their offspring.
Judgment begins on Us not the Pagans
The other theme that people in the group keep saying is that God will Rapture us out of this world and then punish the wicked. My gentle contribution for the last two weeks is this, the Bible says judgment begins with the house of the Lord. 1 Peter 4:17.
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Judgment does not begin after the Rapture, or on the heathen, but on the Church. This concept does not compute in this group. It has no pigeonhole in their theological system. It seems to be a good wedge to drive into Scofield’s theological system. Hopefully it will take root and expand the understanding of some in the group.
There is a still small voice in some corners of the Reformed camp saying the American and Western Church’s failures are due to unbelief. Dear Church, the Devil can only take what you have voluntarily given to him. Most of this is due to the poison of Scofield’s premillennial dispensationalism heresies. Yep, I said the “H” word. It is a lie to say Scofield’s views on eschatology are valid for Christians to hold. The more I see it up close and personal, the more I wretch when I hear it. Yes, I once believed that way but no more. God heard my prayer in the litany, “… from such as these, good Lord deliver us.”
Final Thoughts
There is sometimes a fine line between seasoning a conversation with salt and casting pearls. God is having me examine the idea that a few insurgents in this congregation can coax it towards orthodoxy. I am not alone in my views but clearly in the minority in this congregation. In the plus column, they do practice weekly Communion and at least one teaching Elder rejects the “sinner’s prayer.”
This is blog post is the second concerning Moses, Elijah, and Scofield’s Premillennial Dispensationalism. Bases on previous notes written by Scofield, it appears that his eschatological scheme involves Moses and Elijah—yep, the same guys mentioned prominently in the Old Testament—will again walk planet earth so that they can be killed in Jerusalem; yes, the city in Palestine/Israel, the Holy Land.
Moses and Elijah
The assertion that somehow Moses and Elijah will walk the streets of Jerusalem in the midst of some future End Times Apocalypse is clearly another case of Dispensational Premillennial folks taking symbolic language literally in a wooden sort of way and making a horrible mess of their interpretation.
Here is the passage from Revelation 11 that is being discussed in this post:
2 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy ia thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 11:3–12.
As always, the Dispensational Premillennial folks start by ignoring the time markers in the New Testament texts and make everything future and thus about themselves. (Thus, such passages have been unapplicable and irrelevant for the last 2,00 years of church history. Talk about hubris.)
Below is one of the key verses in this discussion:
Verse 6 of Revelation 11 harkens back to Moses and Elijah but nowhere in the passage does it say their names directly or say they are literally returning.
6 These have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Revelation 11:6
Elijah famously shut up the sky and Moses turned the Nile to blood. The symbolism harkens back to these men but in the final analysis, it remains symbolism.
Below are some comments on the subject from three different sources. I am quoting David Chilton extensively because his book is available for free as a PDF from Gary North’s old website or in printed form from American Vision which is run by Gary DeMar. Lastly, I will let Logos Software take a stab at interpreting the topic.
David Chilton
David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation, Days of Vengeance, has some interesting things to say about the two witnesses in Revelation 11.
Chilton does not believe a literal Moses or Elijah will be showing up in chapter 11 of Revelation. The two unnamed witnesses are composite symbols that will be killed and consequently resurrected.
The fact that the Witnesses are identified as members of the Old Covenant should tell you that these guys died before the Resurrection of Christ since that is the event that inaugurated the New Testament. Almost all prophets died in Jerusalem.
People in the Premillennial Dispensational camp think all the events in Revelation are in chronological order. This is not so. This can easily be proved as Jesus’ birth is discussed in Revelation chapter 12 (see especially verses 1-6). Please note verse 5 where John goes from Jesus’ birth directly to his Ascension. Compare this verse to Psalm 2:6-9. Christ’ dead, burial, and resurrection are skipped in both passages.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Revelation 12:5.
6 Yet have I set my king Upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, And I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
Psalm 2:6–9.
Psalm 2 ends with Jesus reigning on his throne in heaven while Revelation begins with Jesus on his throne in heaven.
In making his comments on the two witnesses, Chilton follows the passage quoted above with a discussion the death of John the Baptist and Jesus—both men dying during the Old Covenant period. And then the church symbolically died and raised to victory in tandem with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple. Thus, as the Old Covenant ends in 70 A.D., we find the Witnesses having risen to everlasting life in and through Christ.
I will quote a long passage from the book. Again, I don’t want to be accused of taking things out of context.
The two Witnesses are identified as the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. At this point the imagery becomes much more complex. St. John returns again to Zechariah’s prophecy of the lampstand (Zech. 4:1-5; cf. Rev. 1:4, 13, 20; 4:5). The seven lamps on the lampstand are connected to two olive trees (cf. Ps. 52:8; Jer. 11:16), from which flow an unceasing supply of oil, symbolizing the Holy Spirit’s filling and empowering work in the leaders of His covenant people. The meaning of the symbol is summarized in Zechariah 4:6: “Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.” The same passage in Zechariah also speaks of two Witnesses, two sons of oil (“anointed ones”), who lead God’s people: Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the king (Zech. 3-4; cf. Ezra 3, 5-6; Hag. 1-2). In brief, then, Zechariah tells us of an olive tree/lampstand complex representing the officers of the covenant: two Witness-figures who belong to the royal house and the priesthood. The Book of Revelation freely connects all of these, speaking of two shining lampstands which are two oil-filled olive trees, which are also two Witnesses, a king and a priest-all representing the Spirit-inspired prophetic testimony of the Kingdom of priests (Ex. 19:6). … That these Witnesses are members of the Old Covenant rather than the New is shown, among other indications, by their wearing of sackcloth – the dress characteristic of Old Covenant privation rather than New Covenant fullness.
5-6 St. John now speaks of the two Witnesses in terms of the two great witnesses of the Old Testament, Moses and Elijah – the Law and the Prophets. If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. In Numbers 16:35, fire came down from heaven at Moses’ word and consumed the false worshipers who had rebelled against him; and, similarly, fire fell from heaven and consumed Elijah’s enemies when he spoke the word (2 Ki. 1:9-12). This becomes a standard symbol for the power of the prophetic Word, as if fire actually proceeds from the mouths of God’s Witnesses. As the Lord said to Jeremiah, “Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall consume them” (Jer. 5:14).
Extending the imagery, St. John says that the Witnesses have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying, i.e., for the twelve hundred and sixty days (three and a half years)- the same duration of the drought caused by Elijah in 1 Kings 17 (see Luke 4:25; James 5:17). Like Moses (Ex. 7-13), the Witnesses have power over the waters to tum them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Both of these prophetic figures pointed beyond themselves to the Greater Prophet, Jesus Christ. The very last message of the Old Testament mentions them together in a prophecy of Christ’s Advent: “Remember the law of Moses My servant. … Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet. …” (Mal. 4:4-5). Malachi goes on to declare that Elijah’s ministry would be recapitulated in the life of John the Baptizer (Mal. 4:5-6; cf. Matt. 11:14; 17:10-13; Luke 1:15-17). But John, like Elijah, was only a Forerunner, preparing the way for One coming after him, the Firstborn, who would have a double – nay, measureless portion of the Spirit (cf. Deut. 21:17; 2 Kings 2:9; John 3:27-34). And, like Moses, John was succeeded by a Joshua, Jesus the Conqueror, who would bring the covenant people into their promised inheritance. The two Witnesses, therefore, summarize all the witnesses of the Old Covenant, culminating in the witness of John.
Days of Vengeance, p 276-278
8-10 The dead bodies of the Old Covenant Witnesses, “from righteous Abel to Zechariah” (Matt. 23:35) lie metaphorically in the street of the Great City which Spiritually [I.e., by the revelation of the Holy Spirit] is called Sodom and Egypt. This City is, of course, Jerusalem; St. John explains that it is where also their Lord was crucified (on Israel as Sodom, see Deut. 29:22-28; 32:32; Isa. 1:10, 21; 3:9; Jer. 23:14; Ezek. 16:46). …
On the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:31), He spoke with Moses and Elijah (another link with this passage), calling His coming death and resurrection in Jerusalem an “Exodus” (the Greek word is exodon). Following from all this is the language of Revelation itself, which speaks of the Egyptian plagues being poured out upon Israel (8:6-12; 16:2-12). The war of the Witnesses with apostate Israel and the pagan states is described in the same terms as the original Exodus from Egypt (cf. also the Cloud and the pillar of fire in 10:1). Jerusalem, the once-holy, now apostate city, has become pagan and perverse, an oppressor of the true Covenant people, joining with the Beast in attacking and killing them. It is Jerusalem that is guilty of the blood of the Old Covenant Witnesses; she is, par excellence, the killer of prophets (Matt. 21:33-43; 23:34-38). In fact, said Jesus, “it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem” (Luke 13:33). Days of Vengeance, p 281
11-12 After the three and a half days, the Witnesses are resurrected: The breath of life from God entered into them in the New Creation (cf. Gen. 2:7; Ezek. 37:1-14; John 20:22) and they stood on their feet (cf. Acts 7:55), causing terror and consternation to their enemies. Great fear came upon those who were beholding them (cf. Acts 2:43; 5:5; 19:17; contrast John 7:13; 12:42; 19:38; 20:19), and with good reason: Through the resurrection of Christ, the Church and her Testimony became unstoppable. In union with Christ in His Ascension to glory (Eph. 2:6), they went up to heaven in the Cloud, and their enemies beheld them. ls The Witnesses did not survive the persecutions; they died. But in Christ’s resurrection they rose to power and dominion that existed not by might, nor by power, but by God’s Spirit, the very breath of life from God.
Days of Vengeance, p 283-284
The story of the Two Witnesses is therefore the story of the witnessing Church, which has received the divine command to Come up here and has ascended with Christ into the Cloud of heaven, to the Throne (Eph. 1:20-22; 2:6; Heb. 12:22-24): She now possesses an imperial grant to exercise rule over the ends of the earth, discipling the nations to the obedience of faith (Matt. 28:18-20; Rom. 1:5).
Days of Vengeance, p 284
Gary DeMar
Something literal can’t be an olive tree and a lampstand at the same time. Thus, the two witnesses in Revelation chapter 11 are symbolic. They are both confirming the other’s message. Were the Law and the Prophets testifying against apostate Jerusalem?
3 And I will grant authority to My two Witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Revelation 11:3&4
“So, whoever these two witnesses are, they’re symbolic of witnesses bringing a message to people who still hate the things of Jesus Christ. Are martyrdom. Their martyrdom does not stop the progress of the Gospel.”
Gary “I don’t know exactly who the two witnesses are.”
Eric “And maybe that’s kinda the point”
Gary “That may be. If you identify them, specifically with two individuals, I think it would narrow maybe the application of it all. What you’re seeing here, as two witnesses, as witnesses to the things of Christ and same response that you find in the book of Acts you’re finding here. Which seems to me that the attack on these two witnesses are the same ones attacking Peter and Paul within the book of Acts. Cause you’ll find in the book of Acts that the apostate Jews were using the political establishment of the day, in order to get a hearing and to get the Roman government to stop these Christians from proclaiming the Gospel.”
Logos Software
> Two Witnesses Revelation 11
The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are empowered by God to prophesy for 1,260 days while clothed in sackcloth, and they are symbolically identified as “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” They possess extraordinary authority—fire proceeds from their mouths to consume enemies, they can prevent rain, transform water into blood, and strike the earth with plagues. (Rev 11:1–14)
The identity of these figures remains one of Revelation’s most contested questions. The Old Testament foundation appears in Zechariah 4, where two olive trees (representing the king and priest) are empowered by the Spirit to lead God’s people.[1] A prominent interpretation identifies them as figures operating “in the Spirit and power of” Moses and Elijah, since their miracles—turning water to blood and preventing rain—mirror those of these Old Testament prophets.[1] Supporting this view is Moses and Elijah’s appearance at Jesus’s transfiguration, along with Jewish expectations that both would return, particularly Elijah as predicted in Malachi 4:5.[2]
However, an alternative proposal suggests Enoch and Elijah, since they alone were taken to heaven without experiencing death and thus could authentically experience the death and resurrection the witnesses undergo.[2] A third view contends that Scripture intentionally withholds famous identities, allowing God to empower two ordinary believers to perform the same miraculous deeds.[2] All three interpretations remain theologically valid, and Christians need not be dogmatic about resolving this ambiguity.[2]
The number two itself carries significance—it fulfills the legal requirement for valid testimony and echoes Zechariah’s dual figures while contrasting with Revelation’s two evil leaders.[1]
[1] J. Daniel Hays, J. Scott Duvall, and C. Marvin Pate, in Dictionary of Biblical Prophecy and End Times (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 2007), 460–461.
Logos Software offers three potential understandings of Revelation 11, none of which involve the literal appearance of Moses and Elijah. A group operating in the Spirit and power of Moses and Elijah seems reasonable. The alternatives of Enoch and Elijah, or two ordinary believers seem like a longshots. Again, the text of Revelation is clear that the Witnesses are symbolic and likely discussed this way as both the Old and New Testament require that everything be established in terms of two or three witnesses.
Conclusion
Scofield’s Easter Egg comment in Matthew 17:2 that “… the prediction fulfilled in John the Baptist, and that yet to be fulfilled in Elijah, are kept distinct” is without biblical foundation and like much of his theology is injected into the text when it is clearly not there. Scofield’s interpretive grid is imposed onto the text of Scripture not derived from its content. Just because Oxford University publishes Scofield’s footnotes in their copy of the Bible does not elevate it to Scripture.
I’ll take Jesus saying that John the Baptist came in the Spirit of Elijah before I would take Scofield’s juvenile, hyper-literal interpretation, that somehow demands that both Moses and Elijah be made mortal and walk the planet so they can experience death in Revelation chapter 11.
I was minding my own business and beginning my day as I often do, reading the Days of Praise devotional from ICR (Institute for Creation Research). I like ICR because as a kid, I read “The Genesis Flood” by John Whitcomb and Henry Morris. Morris founded ICR. This book put me on the path to belief in a literal six-day creation instead of the evolution I was being taught in public school.
My only gripe with ICR is that they will sometimes twist Scripture in an effort to undergird their Premillennial Dispensational presuppositions. Today is such an example. How someone can take the plain meaning of Scripture and butcher it so badly is inexcusable to me. Especially, when they have built their whole organization on the idea of taking the Bible literally; at least until it gets in the way of their presuppositions. Ironically, attacking the presuppositions of others is part of what ICR does when they battle evolutionists. Sadly, they call the kettle black a little too much as you will see shortly.
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”
Luke 9:30–31
This verse is part of the account of the Transfiguration of Jesus. Jesus takes Peter, James, and John to a high mountain where Moses and Elijah appear and speak with Jesus. The voice of the Father is heard here as well.
Screen capture of the entire devotional
Analysis of the Event
While not directly the subject of my blog today, here are a few comments on this passage.
First, geography in the Bible is important. As Michael Heiser and others of like mind point out, the ministry of Jesus is as much about combatting Principalities and Powers as it is rebuking the Jewish religious leaders and proclaiming the arrival of the Kingdom of God. Just a few verses prior to the Transfiguration, Jesus said the gates of Hell won’t prevail against His Kingdom. Jesus said this while standing in front of the Gates of Hell, a pagan shrine dedicated to the god Pan. Then he and the three disciples climb Mt. Hermon, the holy mountain of Bashan, to have the Transfiguration episode.
Mount Hermon is also much higher than Tabor (8,500 feet vs. 1,843 feet), which would fit better with the description of a “high mountain” by Mark (and in Matt 17:1). Some scholars still hold to the Tabor identification, but many have come to agree that the close proximity of Caesarea Philippi to Mount Hermon and the symbolic-religious associations that relationship entails make Mount Hermon the logical choice for the transfiguration.
The imagery is striking. We’ve seen already that the Jewish tradition about the descent of the Watchers, the sons of God of Genesis 6:1–4, informed the writings of Peter and Jude. Now we see that the transfiguration of Jesus takes place on the same location identified by that tradition. Jesus picks Mount Hermon to reveal to Peter, James, and John exactly who he is—the embodied glory-essence of God, the divine Name made visible by incarnation. The meaning is just as transparent: I’m putting the hostile powers of the unseen world on notice. I’ve come to earth to take back what is mine. The kingdom of God is at hand.
Michael S. Heiser, The Unseen Realm: Discovering the Supernatural World of the Bible, Expanded Edition (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2025), 348.
Details in the [Transfiguration] narrative seem to fit better with Mount Hermon, located on the northern edge of Bashan—a region associated in Jesus’ day with demonic activity. Based on this connection, Jesus’ revelation of His true identity in the Transfiguration can be understood as an advance against evil: The King has arrived to defeat the powers of darkness and claim what belongs to Him. The eschatological conquest of Bashan is described in Psa 68, a passage quoted by Paul in Eph 4:8 in connection with the Church.
John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016)
My second observation is the word “decease” in the KJV or “departure” in NIV is the Greek word “Exodus” (ἔξοδος). Jesus would be going on an Exodus! Wow, I don’t recall hearing that said in church before.
But it gets better because, my third observation is that this exodus is coupled with the Greek word “mello” (μέλλω). So, the exodus of Jesus was an event that he was about to accomplish. The KJV, “he should,” in the phrase he should accomplish, masks the immediacy of the event. Another KJV paraphrase?
ICR Puts Their Thumb on the Scale
This is a mysterious passage. Peter, James, and John watched in awe as Christ was transfigured before them as He had promised (Mark 9:2). But how could Moses and Elijah be there? Moses’ body had been buried by God in an unknown tomb in Moab some 1,500 years before, and no resurrection had yet taken place (Deuteronomy 34:5-6; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23). Elijah had been taken alive into heaven in a chariot of fire over 900 years previously (2 Kings 2:11).
How could Moses and Elijah be there?
This is the wrong question to ask but ICR’s answer is the following:
But when He [Jesus] does return in glory, there will be two groups of people sharing His glory with Him: Moses represented the resurrected saints and Elijah the “raptured” saints.
Wow. This is so wrong on so many levels.
First, Moses represents the Law. Elijah represents the Prophets. Jesus repeatedly says the Law and Prophets testify to him so why is that anything novel for me to claim?
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17–18.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luke24:44.
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Acts 28:23.
Lest you think I am alone in my thinking, Logos Software yields the following:
> why are Moses and Elijah at Transfiguration
Moses and Elijah appear at the transfiguration to authenticate Jesus’s messianic identity and demonstrate his continuity with Israel’s redemptive history. They function as representatives of the Law and the Prophets, pointing to Jesus as the messianic Son.[1] This pairing carries profound symbolic weight: Moses had experienced a mountaintop encounter at Sinai where his face shone, and served as a prototype of the coming prophet[2], while Elijah held eschatological significance in Jewish thought as a figure associated with the end times and the Messiah’s precursor.[2]
Beyond their covenantal roles, Moses and Elijah embody a deeper spiritual reality. Both men had longed to see God during their earthly ministries, and their appearance at the transfiguration allows them to witness the eternally begotten Son.[1] Remarkably, Moses finally enters the promised land he was forbidden to inhabit in life, and sees not merely the land but Immanuel himself.[1] Mount Sinai provided the geographical intersection of their ministries—the only place both had gone—where each witnessed a theophany on the mountain.[3] The transfiguration thus echoes this pattern, positioning Jesus within the continuum of God’s self-revelation.
Moses and Elijah demonstrate how Jesus completes the story: under the old covenant they were servants, but under the new covenant Jesus is the master—the prophet, priest, and king Israel awaited.[1] Their presence draws attention to Jesus’s place in continuing God’s redemptive work from the Exodus through the eschatological future, and underscores his superiority over even these revered figures of Israel’s past.[2]
[1] Patrick Schreiner, The Transfiguration of Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Reading (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic: A Division of Baker Publishing Group, 2024), 87–88.
[2] Walter L. Liefeld, “Luke,” in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Matthew, Mark, Luke, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1984), 926–927.
[3] Benjamin A. Foreman, “The Geographical Significance of the Transfiguration,” in Lexham Geographic Commentary on the Gospels, ed. Barry J. Beitzel and Kristopher A. Lyle, Lexham Geographic Commentary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016), 306–307.
So back to ICR.
How could Moses and Elijah be there? ICR’s original question. Well, the Bible never gives us an answer. It states a fact and expects us to believe it.
Peter, James, and John were there because under Old Testament law, valid testimony required two or three witnesses that attested to the same set of facts. These disciples were sworn to secrecy until a later date which followed the exodus of Jesus.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Matthew 17:9.
Folks, ICR has really gone out on a limb which can’t support the weight of their argument. There is zero reference anywhere in this passage about the ideas expressed in I Thessalonians 4:16-17 concerning those that “sleep” or are alive. Again, there is no such thing as “The Rapture” in Scripture; unless you presuppose its existence.
Thus, the claim that Moses represented the resurrected saints and Elijah the “raptured” saints is so novel that nobody has any basis to believe it. It is definitely not supported by the text or the historic understanding of the Transfiguration. Such an interpretation is manufactured in an attempt to lend credibility to the biblical presuppositions of Premillennial Dispensationalism.
I Just Had to Look in Scofield’s Notes: Big Mistake
Just for fun, I looked up the Transfiguration in my Scofield Reference Bible. This Premillennial nonsense is not in Luke’s account of the Transfiguration but in footnotes in Matthew’s version of the Transfiguration event (Matthew 17:2 & 10).
None of Scofield’s notes for the Transfiguration event in Matthew, Mark, or Luke, mention anything about the Law and the Prophets as it relates to the presence of Moses and Elijah.
However, Scofield mentions another bit of theological crap. In his comments on Matthew 17:10 he states:
(1) Christ confirms the specific and still unfulfilled prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6: “Elijah comes and will restore all things.” Here, as in Malachi, the prediction fulfilled in John the Baptist, and that yet to be fulfilled in Elijah are kept distinct.
The New Testament, and Jesus in particular, say that John the Baptist was Elijah that was to come.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Matthew 17:10–13.
Scofield winks at that and then, essentially claims that Jesus was wrong and despite the assurances of Jesus, Elijah will literally return in physical form to do some future tasks that John was not able to do. Without explicitly saying it, I guess he expects Elijah and Moses to be the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-12.
Folks, people don’t typically come back from the afterlife. Jesus clearly states that John the Baptist fulfills the prophecy because he came in the spirit of Elijah, the Bible knows nothing of reincarnation.
Also, does anybody but me have a problem with Moses, having died 4,000 years ago and counting, be required to take on human flesh again so that he can die once again during the Great Tribulation. Moses has already been in Sheol from his death until Christ’s Resurrection, and then he gets a spiritual body and then his eternal life is undone so he can come to earth and die again. Wow. What a horrible punishment; especially for a very righteous man. Scofield is a sadistic S.O.B. for expecting such a fate for Moses. Then again, he is Ok with killing 2/3 of the Jews on the planet so what’s one more dead Jewish guy?
Scofield’s whole claim is based on one distortion. John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah. John said, “No.” John was John, not the reincarnation of Elijah. Thus, Scofield once again taking symbolic language literally, makes the assertion that Elijah never came as prophesied.
Again, Jesus said that John was the Elijah that was prophesied.
11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? 12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him. Mark 9:11–13.
Lest you think I’m playing fast and loose with the text, let’s go to yet another passage.
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luke 1:13–17.
This passage closes the case. Scofield’s insistence that Elijah literally return to Earth so he too can be killed during the Great Tribulation is unsubstantiated crap.
Again, Moses and Elijah are never named in Revelation chapter 11, but a search for the name “Elijah” in my handy Logos Software brings up the passage anyway. Proof that some folks think this is a thing. Ridiculous! (I’ll have more on this in a future post.)
Not Scofield Bible Notes
My other Bible has the following note on Matthew 17:3
Moses and Elijah
Since the Law and the Prophets testify to Jesus, Moses the lawgiver, and Elijah, one of the greatest prophets of Israel, are here privileged to appear with Jesus. According to Luke 9:31 they discussed Jesus’ coming death.
New Geneva Study Bible, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1995.
Conclusion
The Transfiguration is about authenticating Jesus’ message and verifying that he is the promised Messiah. Both the Law and Prophets—again two witnesses—validate the authenticity of his claim. God the Father appears to further validate the claim. It is a preview of Christ’s enthronement in the kingdom of God.
The idea that Moses and Elijah appearing at the Transfiguration is about “The Rapture” is pure fiction and very laughable. The further claim, that either Elijah, Moses, or both will literally return to planet Earth during the Great Tribulation, for the express purpose of dying in Jerusalem, is also nonsense and lacking in biblical warrant. I intend to take up the hoopla about Moses, Elijah, and the Two Witnesses in a future blog post.
Taking symbols literally just makes an ass out of people that we hope are otherwise intelligent. Taking a passage literally should mean in accordance with its type of literature, not literally in a wooden, ChatGPT, AI sort of way. Following Scofield’s notes inevitably leads people into the ditch.
As stated previously, all promises that God made to Abraham were literally fulfilled by the conclusion of the book of Joshua. I also stated that ultimately, the blessing of Abraham’s seed was fulfilled with Christ.
A few folks aren’t satisfied with what I said previously so let me add the following:
In an ultimate sense, Abraham was promised the whole world which is exactly what Christ was given upon his enthronement in heaven. Also, the New Testament is clear that the heirs or descendants of Abraham are not those descended biologically or genetically but those who have faith in Christ.
Lastly, all remaining promises made to national Israel were fulfilled in Christ. There are no unfulfilled biblical promises to Israel that have yet to be fulfilled now or sometime in the future. Claiming that God is not done with Israel invalidates the clear teaching of the New Testament. Such a claim is false. The replacement Theology advocated by Dispensationalists who maintain that the Church replaces the Jews in the current dispensation of the “Church Age” has zero biblical support. Thus, Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz, Jack Hibbs, Billy Graham, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHay, and a host of others are wrong when falsely bifurcating Jews and the Church.
The Church is Israel because at its root, it is built upon the believing remnant of First Century Jews. The Church is a continuation of the faithful with the Gentiles added to its numbers. This is the whole point of the Book of Acts which documents this very transition.
In Old Covenant terms, God divorced His unfaithful bride, national Israel, the whore of Babylon where Jesus was crucified. She was executed via fire, the death of the daughter of the high priest. God took for himself a pure bride, the Church and consummated the marriage with her. Like most of the New Testament, the marriage to Christ was completed in the past, is still happening today as more people are added to the number of the Church and will be fulfilled in its final form at some point in the future. This is the clear teaching of the New Testament; especially, the Revelation.
The Sacrament of Holy Communion is a celebration of Christ’s sacrifice and participation in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Properly understood, we enter into God’s Throne Room when we partake of the bread and wine in Communion. Sadly, many Christians don’t understand the theology associated with the Sacrament.
By claiming that God has both the Church and the Jews as his chosen people, Dispensationalists are advocating a perverse form of polygamy by saying God has two brides. That is not New Testament theology; thus, it is a false gospel.
Yep. You read the headline correctly. I keep saying that when you come to the Bible with a predetermined interpretive system, that you can’t read the actual text and understand the plain meaning of it. Your system gets in the way. A correct biblical hermeneutic is that the Bible is the best interpreter of the Bible.
Last night at the church Bible study that I have been attending for several weeks, we read the second chapter of Joel. I was thinking to myself, great, here is the prophecy and Acts chapter 2 is the fulfillment. It explicitly says so. Surely, they will see that when the Bible uses the phrase “the last days” that it is not always some far off future event.
Nope. Part of me knew this would be the case but I have hope that these people will see beyond their prejudice. Not happening yet.
Let’s look at the text. Being that Peter had just been given the Holy Spirit, it would seem difficult to say that Peter didn’t know what he was talking about, but apparently folks born 2,000 years after the fact think they know better than those that were eyewitnesses to Jesus and his ministry.
Compare these two passages for yourself.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:16–21.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids In those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
Joel 2:28–32.
Peter is claiming that Joel’s prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. That “the last days” was 2,000 years ago.
The people in my Bible study were appalled. They would not take Peter at his word. The last days can’t be then. That is impossible. Peter was wrong. He didn’t know what he was talking about.
I was then accused of being disruptive to the harmony of the group and asked why I even bothered attending. I also was essentially told that I was going against the Holy Spirit by disrupting their harmony.
So, when I quote Scripture that says another Scripture was fulfilled, I’m disrupting the group because it’s not what they presuppose that the Bible ought to say. Makes perfect sense, right?
Asking why I am there is a fair question. Partly, it’s to see if pointing people, that claim to be Christian, to the Bible for answers is even possible.
Their little bubble is just an echo chamber of nonsense. Their creed seems to be, “Get saved and pray for the Rapture.” Christians have nothing else God expects of them but hiding out in the church while the world goes to hell. The sooner the world burns, the quicker Jesus will return. Also, they are convinced that they will never experience hardship or persecution because Jesus will rescue them before things get really bad.
This is a complete inversion of the Reformation and the Puritans and Western Culture in general, yet they think they are on the side of light. Ha!!
The Bible says judgment begins at the house of God not the doorstep of the heathen.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1 Pe 4:17–18.
Folks, eschatology is not a secondary issue. It is a primary issue. Eschatology colors every aspect of life and your understanding of the world. Bad eschatology leaded to a defective worldview. Bad eschatology is like trying to navigate with a broken compass and then thinking that you arrived at the correct destination.
When I side with the Apostle Peter, I’m wrong? Dude, I quoted him verbatim. The unbelief of others illustrates just how far off the mark our Christianity has fallen. As I’ve said before, the devil only owns the turf that the Church has freely ceded to him.
We are commanded to subject all of the world to the Lordship of Christ. Yep, every area of life and every square inch of the planet belongs to Jesus now not in the sweet bye-and-bye.
My sister thinks Jack Hibbs is so wonderful. Hibbs can find biblical prophecy being fulfilled when the local fire department rescues a kitten. Wow. Just think what Jack can do to the Bible when Donald Trump drops bombs in Iran.
Actually, Sunday, I got to find out just that. My sister sent me an hour and 38-minute video from Hibbs about all the wonders of Israel and the USA teaming up to liquidate a few Ayatollahs.
Hibbs was so excited that he started off his church service with his Middle East Bible Prophecy update. Guess he wanted to go on record before the Rapture happened so when the rest of us were left behind, he could say, “Told ya.”
I endured about 55 minutes of his presentation, at which time he seemed to be done dazzling the audience with bullshit. In the entire time, he quoted one Scripture as proof that these events were all predicted in the Old Testament. Oh, said Scripture was not cited until 49 minutes into his song-and-dance routine. I’ll have more to say about this lonely passage in a few minutes.
The sloppiness and misrepresentation of biblical theology was staggering to behold. Talk about a guy appealing to itching ears. Any time Hibbs got close to a biblical theme, he spouted distortions, lies, and half-truths.
I will not give you a play-by-play review of his talk, but I did make a few notes as I listened. I shared these with my sister. My problem is that my sister will take Hibbs over the Bible any time a conflict or contradiction is mentioned. She thinks that she is a “good Christian” but simultaneously denies that Scripture is the final interpreter of Scripture. How can you win a biblical argument with someone that denies biblical authority?
Here are a few gems from Hibbs’ talk that caught my attention:
Hibbs talked about Iran and other nations being run by evil principalities. Sorry, Jack. These principalities were overthrown at the Cross. Jesus is ruler of all the nations and has been for about 2,000 years. Check out Michael Heiser’s Unseen Realm if you really want a deep dive on the spiritual world.
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Hebrews 2:5.
Oh, and we are rulers with Christ.
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Daniel 7:27.
Jack Hibbs prophecy show
Later, Hibbs talked about the Roman Empire. Jack claimed that the Roman Empire “just fell apart.” No Jack, biblically, it was struck by a rock which was Christ and His Gospel that destroyed the old pagan order and is growing into a rock that will one day fill the earth. It’s a dominant part of prophecy in Daniel.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Daniel 2:44–45.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:35.
Or if you prefer a New Testament analogy, the Gospel is the yeast that is leavening the whole world.
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Matthew 13:33.
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Luke 13:20–21.
After talking extensively about Esther, Hibbs gets to Jeremiah 49:34-39. Again, this is a Bible prophecy update and the only Scripture that Hibbs quoted is 49 minutes into his presentation. He claims that Jeremiah’s prophecy is a future event that we see fulfilled before our eyes in the attack on Iran. Sorry Jack but the footnote in my Bible says the passage in Jeremiah was literally fulfilled in 595 B.C. Using the prophetic scissors on biblical texts mind trick doesn’t work on me.
The footnote for Jeremiah 49:34-39 reads: “A prophecy against Elam, an important power to the east of Babylon, subjugated by Assyria, but resurgent in the Babylonian period. The prophecy possibly relates to a Babylonian containment campaign against Elam in 595 B.C.”
As I was writing this, I found a related post from Gary DeMar that takes a well-deserved whack at Hibbs.
Such a belief is pushed 24/7 on Facebook, Christian television, numerous pop-prophecy books, and articles. Jack Hibbs, Amir Tsarfati, David Jeremiah, and numerous online prophetic end-time “experts” are promoting the belief that the rapture is near, citing passages such as Jeremiah 49:34-39. Hibbs said in a recent message, “God has a plan for Elam…. There is no historian and no biblical scholar that will tell you that the prophecy of Elam was fulfilled, and it’s done and completed…. Remember the bucket you saw about the past—it doesn’t go there—but it does go in the bucket of the present.”
You might wonder what Elam has to do with Iran? Nothing. Jeremiah is not describing modern-day Persia. Elam was the son of Shem (Gen. 10:22). The Elamites are mentioned in Abraham’s time (Gen. 14), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, and Acts. Hibbs wants to turn a fulfilled prophecy into events surrounding Iran with no justification by ripping texts out of their historical context…
Like so much of what Jack Hibbs teaches on Bible prophecy, he is incorrect. Jeremiah 49:34-39 goes in the bucket of the past. “This prophecy was fulfilled by Cyrus,” Theodore Laetsch states, “the shepherd and anointed of the Lord (Is. 44:28; 45:1), who incorporated Elam as a province in his vast empire. Elamites and Medians formed part of the army of Cyrus and aided him in conquering the Babylonian Empire (Is. 21:2; Jer. 50:3, 29, archers; v. 22 bow).” There is also a New Testament counterpart where the redemption of Elam is accounted for, as Laetsch and other commentators point out. “In the New Testament era, Elam also will participate in the spiritual deliverance and salvation of God’s kingdom of Grace (cp. 2:9), for Jehovah is the God not only of judgment, but of salvation for Jews and Gentiles.”
Then, like a good dispensational/premillennialist, Hibbs plays the futurism card and starts talking about Jesus sitting on a literal throne in literal Jerusalem. Hey Jack, biblical Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. The Apostle Paul says our citizenship is heaven, we belong to the heavenly Jerusalem, the Jerusalem above is free, the one below is the slave, the fraud, the apostate, the shadow. Jesus is sitting on the throne now in the true Jerusalem, he has no need of a literal chair in a literal Jerusalem to fulfill His purposes.
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; wbut he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Galatians 4:22–26.
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:22–23.
I just get tired of every new generation of advocates for dispensational/premillennialist thinking they will get it right when all others before them have failed. If only we stoned false prophets like they did in the Old Testament … They are just as stuck on stupid as Liberals thinking, when we get our chance to try socialism, it will finally work. Both are equally tilting at windmills of their own creation.
No matter how much prophecy pimps like Jack Hibbs can itch your ears and dazzle you, you are still being led away from the Truth. Repent means turning around. Try it sometime.
Yep, it came up at the Bible study last night that I don’t believe in Scofield’s theological system. People were shocked. We keep reading in the Minor Prophets about the “Day of the Lord” and I asserted that in most cases the day of the Lord is history not a near coming, future event.
The study leader rightly asked me about 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18. I know this is a difficult passage to discuss so I told him that I would have an answer for him next week. He agreed. Below is my attempt to address his question.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.1 Thessalonians 4:13–18.
As pointed out during my research, the better question is not what is my understanding of I Thessalonians 4, but what is the Bible’s understanding? My frustration is that people cannot deal correctly with the Scriptures when they already have their minds made up as to what it means. You cannot find the Darby/Scofield/Dispensational/Premillennial view in Scripture unless you assume it ahead of time and then cherry pick passages to support it; part of this is by excluding or dismissing passages that conflict with these assumptions.
Three Often Cited Proofs of Rapture
While I Thessalonians 4 is used as a proof text of the Rapture doctrine, it is often coupled with a portion of Matthew 24 and an observation about Revelation. You can think of these as the three legs of the stool supporting the Rapture.
I will comment briefly on Matthew and Revelation and then return to I Thessalonians.
Usually, followers of Scofield couple the belief in the Rapture with this passage in Matthew 24: 37-42.
37 But as the days of Noe [Noah] were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:37–42.
In Noah’s day, the righteous were preserved in the ark while the evil men were literally washed away. During the Exodus, the evil men died in the wilderness and the righteous entered the promised land. The New Testament repeatedly promises the world to the righteous and not after the end of all things. The meek will inherit the earth not the wicked. This is a consistent theme in Psalms. Thus, the Matthew passage really says that the evil folks will be done away with (raptured if you will) and the faithful will remain on the earth.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 5:5.
But the meek shall inherit the earth; And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psalm 37:11.
It is ours to enjoy now not in the afterlife. We rule and reign with Christ, now not after death.
For evildoers shall be cut off: But those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Psalm 37:9-10.
Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, And he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: When the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
Psalm 37:34.
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1 Corinthians 4:8–6:2.
We, as believers, will judge the world and even angels.
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1 Corinthians 6:2–3.
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:12.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 2:26–3:21.
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 5:10.
These are now promises, not something for the afterlife. Believers rule the world with Christ now.
Just because Christians do not believe the Bible does not make it’s promises untrue. Unbelief is a denial of God’s promises. Sadly, too many followers of Christ think our world belongs to Satan, a defeated foe by the power of the Cross. Jesus is ruling and reigning now. How people miss the importance of the Ascension of Christ is truly remarkable. How they can think Jesus is on the throne now but not ruling is horrifying. Why else were we commanded to pray that, “Try will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”
The third leg of the Rapture stool is literally an argument from silence; namely, the church is never mentioned in the book of Revelation after chapter 3. John only mentions local congregations in chapters 2 and 3 and makes zero references to the Universal Church anywhere in Revelation. The word “church” never appears again in Revelation but clearly the church is mentioned throughout the book by other names. To claim that the Church no longer exists or is annihilated after chapter 3 is nonsense. Arguing a doctrinal proof on the basis of a word not being in the text is stupid. Here are a few other examples of this fallacy.
Love is never mentioned in the book of Ruth.
God is never mentioned in the book of Esther.
Sex in never mentioned in the Song of Solomon.
Church is not mentioned in the first 15 chapters of Romans.
Thus, whether the word “church” (ecclesia meaning assembly) is mentioned throughout Revelation, the book is clearly about Christ and His Bride the Church.
Appeals to Matthew 24 commenting “.. as in the days of Noah …” or missing the word “church” after a certain point in in Revelation, do nothing to strengthen claims that the Bible teaches the Rapture doctrine. Can we let Scripture interpret Scripture and using only the Bible find a better explanation as to what is happening in I Thessalonians 4?
What is Not Found in I Thessalonians 4
I found two great quotes on the topic that I wish to cite here.
In a debate on eschatology with Dave Hunt, I challenged him to point to one verse that taught a pre-tribulation rapture. He immediately appealed to I Thessalonians 4:16-17. Read it for yourself. The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture must be assumed by the reader and imposed on the text. Sound biblical interpretation, however, requires textual proof before a doctrine can be formulated.
Most postmillennialists and amillennialists teach that I Thessalonians 4:16-17 relates to the general resurrection of the saints. The text simply describes the raising of those who are “in Christ.” No mention is made of the church being raptured either before, during, or after a tribulation period. Nothing in the text points to a tribulation period.
[Last Days Madness, Gary Demar (2024), page 223.]
Even pre-tribulation dispensationalists admit the novelty of this position [the rapture]:
It is scarcely to be found in a single book or sermon through the period of 1600 years! If any doubt this statement, let them search … the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre and post Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines, Roman Catholic writers of all shades of thought, the literature of the Reformation, the sermons and expositions of the Puritans and the general theological works of the day. He will find the “mystery” conspicuous by its absence.
[Harry A. Ironside, The Mysteries of God (1908), p 50.]
Here is a dispensationalist admitting that there is “scarcely” any historical evidence to support the position. He’s too generous. There is no evidence. So where does a dispensationalist get this doctrine? Thomas Ice, a fervent proponent of dispensationalism, writes that the theory is based on “deduction”:
A certain theological climate needed to be created before premillennialism would restore the Biblical doctrine of the pretrib Rapture. Sufficient development did not take place until after the French Revolution. The factor of the Rapture has been clearly known by the church all along; therefore, the issue is the timing of the event. Since neither pre nor posttribs have a proof text for the time of the Rapture (unless the promise made to the church in Rev. 3:10 is an exception which promises deliverance—the Rapture—from the future tribulation before the seven-year period begins), then it is clear that this issue is the product of a deduction from one’s overall system of theology, both for pre and posttribbers.
[Thomas D Ice,The Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Part II (1989), p5.]
What an admission! A pillar doctrine of dispensationalism does not have a single text to prove it. Dispensationalism’s process of “deducing” the rapture theory is this: First, create the system; second, create the doctrines to make the system work; third, claim to have restored “the Biblical doctrines of the pretrib Rapture,” which is based on a “deduction from one’s overall system of theology” because there are no verses that teach it; fourth, imply that the early church, the “apostles of the apostles,” knew nothing of this foundational doctrine. Bizarre. Millions of Christians today hold to a system of interpretation (dispensationalism) that does not have one verse to prove one of its foundational doctrines, the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, the concept that makes dispensationalism dispensational. This system of interpretation is a theological house of cards.
[Last Days Madness, Gary Demar (2024), page 224-225.]
Folks, Ironside and Ice are heavy hitters in the dispensationalist camp, The admissions that they make are not to be lightly dismissed.
If you don’t know Thomas ice, here is some relevant info from Wikipedia.
Ice is a proponent of dispensational premillennialism. He was the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center on the campus of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. The research center was founded in 1994 by Tim LaHaye and Ice to research, teach, proclaim, and defend pre-tribulationism. The center currently sponsors prophecy meetings and conferences and provides speakers for the purpose of discussion and lecture on the topic of pre-tribulationism.
If you don’t know Harry A ironside, here is some relevant info from Wikipedia.
(October 14, 1876 – January 15, 1951) was a Canadian–American Bible teacher, preacher, theologian, pastor and author who pastored Moody Church in Chicago from 1929 to 1948.
Ironside believed that the church is parenthetical, which was something not revealed in the Old Testament, and at some point God will rapture the church before the great tribulation, during which he will again focus on the nation of Israel.
Along with others such as Cyrus Scofield, he was influential in popularizing dispensationalism among Protestants in North America. Despite his lack of formal education, his mental capacity, photographic memory and zeal for his beliefs caused him to be called “the Archbishop of Fundamentalism”.
Ironside was one of the most prolific Christian writers of the 20th century and published more than 100 books, booklets and pamphlets, a number of which are still in print. One editorial reviewer wrote of a 2005 re-publication, “Ironside’s commentaries are a standard and have stood the test of time.”
So what did Scofield claim about I Thessalonian 4?
Scofield, asserts in his only footnote on I Thessalonians 4:
(4:17) This central passage on the blessed hope of the Church includes: (1) reassurance (vv. 13-14); (2) revelation (vv. 15-17, setting forth the return of Christ, the rapture of the Church, and the reunion of all believers); and (3) comfort (v. 18).
Scofield is very silent on a doctrine that is a cornerstone of his theological system. Weird. The chief proof text of the Rapture is given one footnote of one sentence in his Bible. No mention of judgment, great tribulation, antichrist, or any of the other things often talked about in the wake of the Rapture. Scofield just assumes it. Thomas Ice deduces it.
If not The Rapture, Then …
If I Thessalonians 4 is not the Rapture of popular understanding, then what is happening in this text?
Not much if the Westminster Confession of Faith is any metric.
Chapter XXXII
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
Article II
At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.
This Confession, which I suspect is like many others from the Reformation era, simply cites I Thessalonians 4:17 as a proof text for resurrection on the last day. This article of the Confession parrots part of the Nicene Creed.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
This more traditional view is echoed by David Chilton in Days of Vengeance.
There is thus to be a resurrection at the end of history, at the Second Coming of Christ on the Last Day (John 6:38-40, 44, 54; Acts 24:15; 1 Thess. 4:14-17). But before that final resurrection there is another, a First Resurrection: the resurrection of “Christ the first fruits.” He rose from the dead, and resurrected all believers with Him. Note: St. John does not say that the believer himself as such is resurrected, but that he has a part in the First Resurrection. He is sharing in the Resurrection of Another-the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
[David Chilton, Days of Vengeance (1987), p. 517.]
The Hope of Israel and the Nations
It seems that many non-dispensational folks don’t expend a lot of theological energy on I Thessalonians since all it says is Jesus will come back some day, raise sleeping saints, and then the living will join him. Often it is assumed that this will happen at the end of all things but there is another possibility.
I found a transcript of a different and more nuanced point of view on this passage. The paper is linked here and cost $2.95. The paper makes a biblically defensible argument for a third possible understanding of the Thessalonian passage. Participants are Gary DeMar as interviewer and Kim Burgess as guest.
Burgess’ point of view is that the Old Covenant is types and shadows; materials representations of spiritual reality, while the New Covenant is the spiritual reality. Burgess cites examples of the New Covenant being spiritual as John 4, the woman at the well “you will never thirst”; John 3, “ye must be born again”; and John 6, “labor for meat that endureth to everlasting life.” The spiritual reality of the New Covenant is illustrated in Paul’s letter to the Galatians.
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Galatians 4:22–31.
In the paper, they argue for the nearness of the coming of the Lord in judgment. Part of that coming involves the Old Covenant saints being released from Sheol and being brought into heaven. (The subject of 1 Corinthians 15.) Further that the meeting with the Lord in the air or in heavenly places is a transfer in status from the Old to the New Covenant order.
Kim: In the transition to the New Covenant order we see that a switch has taken place from the physical or material hermeneutic (e.g., the physical and visible temple or mountain) to the “Spiritual” or “heavenly” hermeneutic (cf. the heavenly Jerusalem and Zion of Hebrews 12:22). Paul uses these two modifying terms quite deliberately in 1 Corinthians 15:44-49. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 we still have the language of “the Lord coming down” in Exodus 19:20 (see also “the glory of the Lord” resting on Mt. Sinai in Ex. 24:16-17), but the text does not actually say He came down to Earth in the flesh or that He was to appear there physically/bodily. That is an assumption that we read into the text while hardly being aware that we are doing it. He was to “come down or descend” and the saints—the dead and the living—were to go to “a meeting” with Him “in the air.” We will come back soon to the meaning of “in the clouds” and “in the air.” The point for now is that this is the Spiritual and heavenly reality (the antitype) of what was formerly, in the Old Testament, a physical type.
Kim: It is the all-too-common physical (bodily) rapture mentality of Dispensationalism that tends to get hold of us if we are not careful and re-wires our brains to think that Paul is describing people being moved bodily from point A to point B geographically, in this case from earth to heaven, but it is just not so here in 4:17. It is a spiritual transition from death to Life (i.e., eternal Life in Christ) that is in view.
Kim: Let’s get back to verse 17. The English translation I am using (NASB) reads “to meet the Lord in the air,” but, in the Greek, it is actually a noun and not a verb: “to a meeting of the Lord in the air.” That noun is ἀπάντησις (apantēsis) and refers to “a meeting.” Do you know where else this same noun is used? It’s in Matthew 25:1 and 6 about the five foolish and five wise virgins going out to “a meeting of the bridegroom.” This is the same “meeting” as in 4:17. It is a wedding theme. See Revelation 19:5-9 for more detail. This “meeting,” I believe, is what John calls “the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
Gary: Mike Sullivan brings out the wedding parallels found in Matthew 24-25 and 1 Thessalonians 4-5 in the section below from his extended chart on the topic.
Paul’s use of the trumpet and the cloud in I Thessalonians 4:16 is a direct reference to the Glory Cloud in Exodus and also the arrival of the Holy Spirt on Pentecost (Acts 2). David Chilton, quoted earlier, called the Glory Cloud “God’s mobile home” and cites Merideth Kline’s Images in the Spirit which documents the Cloud’s appearance in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
As added support to the claim that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about an event in the First Century, look also at II Thessalonians Chapter 1.
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6–12.
Paul promises the Thessalonians that they, in the First Century, will get relief from persecution. Using language typical of biblical prophets, Paul promises that Jesus will use flaming fire to take vengeance on the godless who will be punished with everlasting destruction and simultaneously, the saints will be glorified. So, did the Thessalonians get relief as Paul promised, or did he lie?
Another passage also says Jesus will deliver Paul’s Thessalonian readers from the wrath to come.
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 1:10.
The Thessalonians were promised deliverance from the “wrath to come.” It was a near event, not one two thousand years away. These promises of relief are very similar to those given to the seven churches in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.
Conclusion
Using only Scripture as your guide, there is zero biblical warrant for the Rapture doctrine. Only by bringing a pre-existing system to the pages of Scripture can you assume a Rapture doctrine exists somewhere in the Bible. Thomas Ice admits that the Rapture is “deduced” and not actually found in the Bible. If you say something loud enough and often enough people tend to believe it. Its just as true in theology as it is in politics or the media.
The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, as shown by Mike Sullivan’s chart, is the same as the trumpet in Matthew 24:31. Kim Burgess elsewhere states that the trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and Revelation’s 7th trumpet are the same event as well. Four passages, same trumpet, same event. Whether past or future, I think Burgess is correct about all four verses are the same event.
I think there is a good argument, that during the coming of Jesus in the judgment of 70 AD, that 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-17 was fulfilled. Others believe the passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 occurs at the end of time. Either way, there is no need for a Rapture as understood in the Premillennial/Dispensational system. When the central event of a theological system must be assumed because there are no proof texts for it, then it is time to reevaluate the position.
As for my opinion on the text, I’m inclined to go with DeMar and Burgess. Jesus judged Jerusalem in 70 AD but continues that rule and judgment today. It is an ongoing process that will culminate in a final resolution in the future.
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.
I know that Dispensationalists frequently miss the mark on biblical theology. They like to beat the strawman of “Replacement Theology” when they are the only ones that teach a form of it. They switch out the Old Testament Jews with the Church in the mythical (mythical because it doesn’t really exist) Eschatological Parenthesis of the Church Age.
In their system, God quits dealing with the Jews once they reject the offer of the Kingdom of God that Jesus and John the Baptist offered in the First Century. God, frustrated by the liberal use of freewill to reject His plan, then pivots to Plan B, the Church Age. At the end of time, God will Rapture all the Christians off the planet which terminates Plan B. God then returns to His original plan. Then He promptly kills off 2/3 of the Jews. Then the pride of the remaining Jews will be broken and then they will all convert to belief in Jesus. Once, the Jews are sufficiently calibrated, Jesus will return to rule for 1,000 years sitting on a literal throne in Jerusalem.
Folks, this is way better than Ray Bradberry or Phillip K. Dick could ever imagine. Tens of millions of Evangelical protestants believe everything I just said and then some. They think all the above can be found in the pages of the Bible. It can’t unless you use lots of glue, scissors, paste, and imagination. Oh, and discard most of the Bible in the process. No worries though. They are hell bent of defending this escapist trash as the Gospel.
Thankfully, you don’t have to be stuck in denial of the ramifications of the Great Commission.
Today’s lesson is from the book of Matthew. It teaches that Jesus is the true Israel. This being true, then His followers are part of the true Israel too. This is yet another way of showing that God took a remnant from Old Covenant Israel and grafted in the Gentiles. This New Testament Body of Christ is the true Israel. This is yet another rebuttal to the charge of Replacement Theology that Dispensationalists try to level against their opponents. I talked about the Body of Christ being a continuation of the OT believers and its expansion to include Gentiles in my previous post. This post will be about Matthew and his teaching that Jesus is the true Israel.
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:13–15.
Here is the Old Testament reference.
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.
Hosea 11:1.
OK, you need to ask yourself if Matthew was just being cute by emphasizing the “out of Egypt I called my son” or if he made a mistake in an effort to come up with a fulfilled prophecy concerning Jesus, or did he really mean that Jesus is the true Israel?
Well, yep, Jesus is the true Israel was his point. That is why he includes the account of the temptation in the wilderness. Jesus wandered about in the desert for forty days, the children of Israel wandered about for forty years. Jesus passed his time of testing, but Israel failed and wandered 40 years as a result.
So, Jesus was the true Israel, and his followers are the true Israel.
Here is how Logos Bible Software summarizes the idea that Jesus is the True Israel.
Search criteria > Jesus is the true Israel
Jesus embodies the role Israel failed to fulfill—he succeeds where the nation disobeyed, demonstrating faithful obedience where they rebelled.[1][2] This identity emerges through Matthew’s deliberate recapitulation of Israel’s foundational narrative. Matthew applies Hosea 11:1 (“Out of Egypt I called my son”) to Jesus and structures his Gospel to mirror Israel’s exodus from Egypt, crossing of the Red Sea, wilderness temptations, and arrival at Mount Sinai to receive the law.[1]
The theological significance runs deeper than mere historical parallels. As God’s Son, Jesus reflects his Father’s character and ways, proving himself the true Israelite through obedience to the law where Israel disobeyed and submission to God’s will where they rebelled.[1] Where Israel failed the desert temptations, Jesus remained faithful to God.[3] Jesus is not simply Israel’s savior; he embodies what Israel was meant to be.[1]
This fulfillment extends to Israel’s covenantal purpose. As the true Israelite, Jesus stands on God’s side, championing his cause and embodying his character, becoming the true covenant partner through his fully human trust and obedience.[1] He fulfills this role not for himself but for the faithless covenant partner—achieving righteousness and obedience on behalf of God’s people through his representative work.[1] Paul develops this concept by presenting Jesus as Abraham’s seed who truly inherits the covenant promises, stepping into the position of those under the law to redeem them and realize the blessings in himself.[3]
[1] Michael D. Williams, Far as the Curse Is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 2005), 225.
[2] Barry E. Horner, Biblical Israel: The Anti-Judaic Incursion of Process Biblical Theology (Barry E. Horner, 2021), 91.
[3] S. Motyer, “Israel (Nation),” in New Dictionary of Biblical Theology, ed. T. Desmond Alexander and Brian S. Rosner (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 585.
If you are interested, I got this blog idea from Doug Wilson and then looked it up on Logos as a second witness.
